On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. I find that to be an amazing God thing. Hmmm all I can say is, it depends on the individual and in what way theyre hurting. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. You may be sad that we all dont get what you get about Calvinism (and Im sad that you dont see it my way lol), but we dont need to dwell there. As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. But are *we* the measure of truth? There is a new evangelism taking place. The theology is weak. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. whats so complicated about that? I sure love the practical side of things. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. He started out not sure where he stood. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. Ravi Zacharias 26. @ dee: They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. Press J to jump to the feed. (I mean, Star Trek?). And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. Im not always that good at explaining things well. But the rest of the bad stuff? I got a taste of this by spending a couple of years in Ed Young Jr.'s church. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. Infused? Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. I, for one, *do* understand. A lot of people (hostile atheists especially) like to frame the whole ordeal as in, How mean or wrong it was of God to make that forbidden fruit tree when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it, but the guy pointed out thats the not the way to look at it. There are sound Christian people out there who are willing to admit this. Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. I trust him because I understand his loving nature. Im talking about TULIP. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. He is still in a leadership position within the church. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. Resistance is futile.. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. I hold you in high esteem. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Admittedly, Calvin also had a lot of temporal power, which he did not always use wisely. I wish we didnt even have to talk about it. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. I can know that such a rule/principle is wrong because Jesus said the two central commands are to love God above all and neighbor as self, and then he called the rest of the Bible, all the laws and principles to be an addendum to those central two laws. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. * Okay, end of sermon. My young son-in-law has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. It is not love to push Calvin. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. It contains a list of 16 "behaviors" to look for when seeking to smoke out Calvinistic pastors. Keith Green (the only musician that made the list) 22. I. Howard Marshall 28. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. Wesley and Whitefield came from opposite sides of the argument and yet I understand were able to have tolerable, if not friendly, relationships surely an encouragement to everyone else? We do better together than we do on our own. Paige Patterson 18. We are. My dad was Russian Orthodox, primarily because it was a cultural expectation for him. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). So far, we both agree. I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. Philosophers (not necessarily Christian ones) have wrestled with these questions for thousands of years without any real answers. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Old Pollyannasdie hard. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. Which is fine! Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. Maybe it isnt. That is biblical. Ill have to look that one up. This reminds me of what the guy in the videos (Refuting Calvinism video series) was saying in one video. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. Never once, have I ever thought that these folks were not saved. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. What content does your faith have? This is as it should be, imo. Yes, God loves you. Advocate & Solicitor of the High Court of Malaya. C.K. Both my husband and I knew the difference at this point and began to look for another church in Dallas which we found in Bent Tree Bible Church. Im aware of his molecule statement. The promises are over the top. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. What content does your faith have?. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. Im not sure if Im doing justice to the guys views in how Im explaining it, so watching his video may be better. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. @ Julie Anne: The list 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians includes Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist), Stephen Tong, D. A. Carson, John F. MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. We need well-rounded meals, small and frequent, in a quiet warm kitchen with loads of kindness. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Would you want to answer that one? Neither is TULIP. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. John Hagee. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. Groovy, man. They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). I have tried to track the historical development of the non-Calvinist position. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? He is to me, and that in spite of my categorical rejection of most of what he believes. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Hes describing man, not God. Joel B. If a megachurch pastor somewhere announced that as a Calvinist he was now going to start killing and eating babies, I would not hold this against small-c calvinists in general. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. For this reason, it is often called "God-centered" theology. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. If this is so, its really astounding. It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online.
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